|
Post by Pacifica on Sept 12, 2024 16:19:08 GMT
I don't think I would set the minimum for "a certain age" so high.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Sept 12, 2024 16:51:40 GMT
Larousse has qui n'est plus jeune, and Wiktionary, plutôt âgé, which doesn't help much but in any case yeah it's not consistent with my "(very) old" interpretation. I don't really see the point in using a euphemism if you're talking about someone who's simply "not young" but oh well. (Of course one could argue that there's no point in talking euphemistically about people's age anyway, but that's besides the point.)
|
|
|
Post by terentiusfaber on Sept 12, 2024 18:52:42 GMT
decrepit is the word you're looking for
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 4, 2024 19:40:48 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 4, 2024 19:57:25 GMT
By the way, read the "trivia" note in that entry. It's delightful.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Oct 4, 2024 20:23:05 GMT
Very interesting! The borrowing hypothesis is hard to sell when it comes to such common grammatical words as "até", but in this case, the other hypotheses don't seem all that convincing to me, so why not? The fact that it has some of the same secondary meanings as the Arabic word also has to be taken into consideration, although it seems like a rather natural semantical evolution. After all, even French "jusqu'à" can have that "even" sense. By the way, read the "trivia" note in that entry. It's delightful. Poor guy. This word seems like a mess.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Oct 4, 2024 20:53:34 GMT
I wonder what accent your mental voice speaks with when reading Portuguese: French phonology all the way, or do you try to spice it up a bit based on your knowledge of other Romance languages (and maybe of Portuguese itself, even though you don't know it)?
On a different but related note: can one's mental voice when reading foreign languages have a better accent than when one actually speaks the same language out loud? I don't think so because in the end my personal feelings is that accent has more to do with how our brains processes the sounds of language than with the vocal apparatus (even though it's also important obviously), but I may very well be wrong about this.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 4, 2024 22:40:59 GMT
The borrowing hypothesis is hard to sell when it comes to such common grammatical words as "até", but in this case, the other hypotheses don't seem all that convincing to me, so why not? Grammar words aren't borrowed as often as other words, but I (and probably you) know of several exceptions, so yeah, while that's maybe a slight argument against the hypothesis, it's nowhere near cogent enough to dismiss it. The truth could even be a mixture of more than one hypothesis. E.g. the word could have started out as ad ista and have been confused with and reinforced by hatta, or vice versa. I wonder what accent your mental voice speaks with when reading Portuguese: French phonology all the way, or do you try to spice it up a bit based on your knowledge of other Romance languages (and maybe of Portuguese itself, even though you don't know it)? I didn't pay attention. I made no conscious effort to make it sound a certain way. I guess it's probably rather French-sounding with some influence from elsewhere. I don't read Portuguese often. I just come across a post in it or so once in a blue moon. can one's mental voice when reading foreign languages have a better accent than when one actually speaks the same language out loud? That's a resounding yes for me. Often, words in my head sound correct, or correct enough to seem correct to me, but once I try pronouncing them, my "vocal apparatus" just won't reproduce the sounds quite so well. I can hear that it's off, but I can't help it.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 4, 2024 22:52:02 GMT
Come to think of it, it's similar to what happens to me with singing. When I have a song in my head, it sounds fine. But when I actually sing it, it's awful.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 4, 2024 23:04:32 GMT
it's similar to what happens to me with singing. And even in other domains that have nothing to do with phonetics. I can imagine a beautiful drawing/painting in my head, for instance. But if I try to actually produce it, well... it may not be as awful as my singing, but it will be nowhere near as good as the mental picture.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Oct 5, 2024 0:31:03 GMT
that's maybe a slight argument against the hypothesis I'd say it's a little more than that. I know there are exceptions, but that's what they are, unless the phenomenon is more widespread than I thought. Come to think of it, it's similar to what happens to me with singing. When I have a song in my head, it sounds fine. But when I actually sing it, it's awful. That's a bit what I was getting at -- or coming from, to be more precise: I think having an ear for language is pretty much the same as having an ear for music. And the thing is, people who sing off-key certainly lack the physical training required to sing in tune, but they also lack the ear training. If the music in your head really sounded fine, then you should be able to take a violin and play in tune. Maybe laboriously, and you wouldn't hit the right notes on your first try, but you should be able to hit them eventually, and know you have hit them. Problem is: that just doesn't happen. At least not in the overwhelming majority of cases. It's not that (most) untrained people can't sing or play in tune: it's that they can't hear in tune. And my hypothesis is that the same is true for language. Or for painting, if you transpose the problem to the visual domain. The "big picture" might look fine in your head, but if you look closer: are you sure your perspective is right? The proportions, the anatomy, the exact hue of the shades? Being able to form a "correct" representation in your head of something is IMO the hard part of most anything. I still remember what a comic artist friend told me years ago: drawing is all about "seeing". Sure, we might not have the muscle memory required to then produce a physical version of it as deftly as an expert would, but my theory is that it's secondary: it's all mostly in the head. Now, like I said, the muscle part is important as well. Being able to draw a smooth-looking "perfect" circle takes muscle training for instance. Realizing some phonemes the right way does as well, and even if you could nail them in isolation, getting them right in actual speech would be harder. So you're probably right in saying that it's possible for one's "mental accent" to be better than one's actual accent, but my revised view is that the discrepancy might not be that large.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Oct 5, 2024 0:49:46 GMT
(full disclosure: I feel like my obsession with bringing together my love for music and language leads me astray from time to time. This may be a case of it, and my views about music may be wrong to start with anyway.)
|
|
|
Post by Pacifica on Oct 5, 2024 1:00:20 GMT
I mean, I'm not claiming that I hear foreign languages in my head with 100% accuracy, but I definitely do so with more accuracy than I pronounce them. The proof is that, very often, I know that my pronunciation of this or that is off, but it just won't come out of my mouth the way I hear it in my head. And if someone tells me "you got that wrong, it should sound this way" I'm like "well, I know... but it just comes out wrong somehow". (That can be frustrating because it basically makes me sound more ignorant than I am. I know, but my mouth won't obey me.) If it were only a matter of hearing things wrongly, I wouldn't even realize my pronunciation was wrong.
|
|
kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by kizolk on Oct 5, 2024 9:25:17 GMT
If it were only a matter of hearing things wrongly, I wouldn't even realize my pronunciation was wrong. Like I said, I think in most cases it's both; I just think the hearing part should take most of the blame. I think it's perfectly possible to realize one's pronunciation of a word or phoneme is wrong without being able to tell exactly in what way it is wrong as a matter of hearing and sound processing, as opposed to production. To give my personal example, when I recorded myself speaking English and posted it here, I knew my second vowel in the word "among" was off, and Terry confirmed it. But the thing is, it sounded every bit as off in my head as what I produced. I simply hadn't managed to pinpoint where that vowel lied exactly. And right at this moment, when I try to hear it in my head, I can't "produce" one that feels like I've nailed it (even though I may have). The vowel lies in uncharted territory as far as I'm concerned. But everyone's brain is different and I'm open to the possibility that for some people, the production part is where the bigger problem lies.
|
|
|
Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Oct 5, 2024 21:17:16 GMT
As you've asked to be corrected -- lay. Though in theory one could construct an argument for a mendacious vowel.
|
|