kizolk
Indecisive 
Posts: 5,666
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Post by kizolk on Jul 24, 2024 17:57:06 GMT
Or maybe we should consider "me" to be like "moi" in French ("c'est moi", "moi aussi", "moi, je pense que..."), i.e. a tonic pronoun that has little to do with its original case.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 24, 2024 18:43:51 GMT
What case is "me" in "it's me", eh? Is English developing a predicative case or is "be" becoming transitive? Surely it's pretty much the same as the French 'c'est moi'? One of my favourite cartoons was a New Yorker one depicting a woman looking suspiciously at an intercom in her flat, with the text 'I don't know anyone who says, "It is I"'. |
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 24, 2024 18:44:27 GMT
I hadn't seen kizolk's post when I wrote mine.
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Post by Pacifica on Jul 24, 2024 19:16:24 GMT
For whatever isn't the subject of an explicit verb. I don't know what that case would be called.
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Post by Pacifica on Jul 24, 2024 19:17:02 GMT
I'm ninja'd too.
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Post by Pacifica on Jul 24, 2024 19:17:44 GMT
Surely it's pretty much the same as the French 'c'est moi'? Yes. "Me" and "moi" only overlap partly, though. |
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
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Post by kizolk on Jul 24, 2024 19:22:53 GMT
I don't know anyone who says, "It is I"'. Do you know anyone who says it, actually? Would it be considered good English? Also, how does "It is I who do (something)" sound to you? A related issue in French is that in the spoken language you'll often hear things like "c'est moi qui est/a (quelque chose)", when prescriptively you should say "c'est moi qui suis/ai". I use both I think, but mostly the latter. |
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 24, 2024 19:51:49 GMT
I can't recall ever hearing 'It is I' in normal speech.Someone might say it for humorous value, but it isn't very funny, so it doesn't happen often. Still, it's taught as a rule in school, or at least was in my time.
'It is I who do' -- I can't think offhand of a sentence of this form that wouldn't sound eccentric, but I might be missing something.
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
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Post by kizolk on Jul 24, 2024 22:23:06 GMT
'It is I who do' -- I can't think offhand of a sentence of this form that wouldn't sound eccentric, but I might be missing something. Just to make sure: do you mean that it should be "does" instead? Or is it "it is I who" that you don't like? |
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 25, 2024 7:02:24 GMT
The latter. I suppose you could get away with in a sentence like, 'It is I who have descended from the clouds on a chariot to wreak vengeance on malefactors,' but only if you've really descended from clouds on a chariot. 'It is I who did all the washing-up' just sounds weird.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 25, 2024 7:16:24 GMT
I wrote that before checking to see whether the internet was filled with people constructing sentences of the form 'It is I who', demonstrating that I was talking nonsense and referring only to my own idiolect. (Although this would only prove that the phrase was common in writing.) I still can't tell whether it is or not, because run-of-the-mill usages, if they exist, are crowded out by people agonising over whether the verb should be first or third person. I'd go for first person. Language Hat, whom I know from elsewhere, is generally good value, and attracts interesting comments: languagehat.com/i-who-is/. The different versions of the Bobby Byrd song are extremely interesting: was one a misprint, or were there at least two recordings? I'd never heard of the song, but it's very likely the title is part of the lyrics. But I was reminded of 'I Who Have Nothing', from the same era, which I rejected as a parallel, as it it lacks the introductory 'it is'. |
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 25, 2024 7:27:37 GMT
But if you substitute 'it's me', which people might actually say, you'd use the third person. It's me who ends up doing all the washing-up around here, isn't it time one of you lazy buggers helped out?
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
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Post by kizolk on Jul 25, 2024 8:35:01 GMT
I find this part confusing: Why would "you who have" be "non-grammatical!", and "I who am" "perhaps grammatical"? Is it because of the particular verb used? My feeling is that he made it up or got confused while writing this. |
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Post by Pacifica on Jul 25, 2024 9:08:20 GMT
My feeling is that he made it up or got confused while writing this. Your feeling is right. Both phrases are grammatically correct according to traditional grammar, although both are rather obsolete in everyday parlance. "You who has" and "I who is" still make me cringe... especially the latter (that's a subjective reaction, of course, as from a rational perspective they both have the same issue). |
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,666
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Post by kizolk on Jul 25, 2024 10:10:41 GMT
"You who has" and "I who is" still make me cringe... especially the latter (that's a subjective reaction, of course, as from a rational perspective they both have the same issue). Speculatively I'd say that it could be because the "me vs. the rest of the world" dichotomy is more fundamental than the "the person I'm speaking to vs. someone else I'm not directly addressing" one: kind of okay to have the same verbal form for 2nd and 3rd persons, but not okay to have the same conjugation for 1st and 3rd (or any other person). Do the French equivalents ("toi qui a", "moi qui est") make you cringe equally? "Toi qui a" sounds the same as "toi qui as" so it muddles up the issue a bit, but let's pretend they're different. |
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