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Post by Bitmap on Jun 13, 2023 12:13:40 GMT
I can't promise this will be a huge thread, but I come across some weird Bible verses sometimes that I have a closer look at. It happens once in a blue moon, but I still thought I could collect them here somehow.
I came across Hebrews 12,6 today:
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.
This is indeed the correct translation for the original Greek version:
ὃν γὰρ ἀγαπᾷ κύριος παιδεύει,
μαστιγοῖ δὲ πάντα υἱὸν ὃν παραδέχεται.
However, the Greek lines were taken from a LXX translation of Proverbs 3,12.
As it turns out, the part about "chastising every son" was simply made up in the Greek translation.
The original verse in Hebrew says,
כִּי אֶת אֲשֶׁר יֶאֱהַב יְהוָה יוֹכִיחַ וּכְאָב אֶת־בֵּן יִרְצֶה
To my understanding that just means
"For whom loves JHWH (he) corrects/reproves, but just like a father the son likes."
i.e. For whom JHWH likes he corrects, but likes him just like a father likes his son.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jun 13, 2023 16:53:23 GMT
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Post by Bitmap on Jun 14, 2023 8:03:07 GMT
Oh, interesting, but I found it pretty obvious that it should mean "shining". That's the argument I would have made as well. The other passage where this appears in the Bible is Psalms 61,31 ... which is literally about oxen and bulls. |
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Post by LonginusNaso on Jun 15, 2023 17:09:37 GMT
However, the Greek lines were taken from a LXX translation of Proverbs 3,15. As it turns out, the part about "chastising every son" was simply made up in the Greek translation. The original verse in Hebrew says, כִּי אֶת אֲשֶׁר יֶאֱהַב יְהוָה יוֹכִיחַ וּכְאָב אֶת־בֵּן יִרְצֶהTo my understanding that just means "For whom loves JHWH (he) corrects/reproves, but just like a father the son likes." The apparatus of the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia says that one manuscript has וְיַכְאִב for וּכְאָב, to make a better chiasmus with the previous causative or 'hiphil' verb, from כאב ( 2nd listing here). It also lists this verse as 3:12. |
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Post by Bitmap on Jun 15, 2023 19:36:21 GMT
It also lists this verse as 3:12. My mistake. Thank you. |
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 26, 2023 19:54:01 GMT
Elsewhere on the internet the discussion was about John 8.7. Which made me think that this must -- in English -- be the most misquoted Bible verse, because I am not sure that I've ever heard it quoted correctly.
What pretty much everyone says, with minor variations: 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.'
What the KJV, which may not be the most accurate of translations but has the most character, so it's what's usually quoted, actually says: 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.'
Obviously, you need to knock off the last two words if you're using it as a metaphor. But there's no need to transfer the primacy from the thrower to the stone, although in practice it comes to the same thing.
I am unable to find an English translation that does this, not that I've looked at all, or even most, of the 150 or so available easily enough at biblegateway.com, because I get bored easily. But Luther's translation is: Wer unter euch ohne Sünde ist, der werfe den ersten Stein auf sie. This seems curious.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 26, 2023 20:00:14 GMT
The Greek's neater, isn't it? ὁ ἀναμάρτητος ὑμῶν πρῶτος ἐπ’ αὐτὴν βαλέτω λίθον.
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Post by Bitmap on Jul 27, 2023 6:01:28 GMT
Thanks! I didn't actually know that. Elsewhere on the internet the discussion was about John 8.7. Which made me think that this must -- in English -- be the most misquoted Bible verse, because I am not sure that I've ever heard it quoted correctly. What pretty much everyone says, with minor variations: 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.' It's similar in German, where the Luther translation you mentioned essentially became the typical aphorism. I am unable to find an English translation that does this, not that I've looked at all, or even most, of the 150 or so available easily enough at biblegateway.com, because I get bored easily. But Luther's translation is: Wer unter euch ohne Sünde ist, der werfe den ersten Stein auf sie. This seems curious. If you're looking for a German translation that is rather truthful to the original Greek, you should look at the Elberfelder translation. The Elberfelder version translates: Wer von euch ohne Sünde ist, werfe als Erster einen Stein auf sie.Elberfelder seems to pay a lot of attention to details. I've also noticed that it translates Matt. 5,3 as Glückselig die Armen im Geist, denn ihrer ist das Reich[1] der Himmel. with a footnote that "Reich" means "Königsherrschaft" here and the correct plural genitive for heavens. Also, "die Armen im Geist" ist very literal (although I wonder why it doesn't say Geiste; must be a revised version), albeit maybe not easy to understand. Luther has, philologically speaking, a bit of a downwashed translation: Selig sind, die da geistlich arm sind; denn ihrer ist das Himmelreich.(The Greek is Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι, ὅτι αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν.) |
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Post by Bitmap on Jul 27, 2023 6:07:16 GMT
Speaking of Bible translations, the Zürcher translation also gets John 8,7 right (it's essentially the same as the Elberfelder translation); it even agrees with my understanding of proverbs 3,12 (the initial message of this thread), while many other translations seem to have cheated and just looked at the LXX. To my surprise, Luther is actually close to my understanding as well.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Jul 27, 2023 7:29:02 GMT
If you're looking for a German translation that is rather truthful to the original Greek, It's not so much that I'm looking for a German translation that doesn't refer to first stones; what strikes me as strange is why the everyday expression in English does transfer the adjective, although I can't find an English translation that does. (Even if there is an obscure one somewhere, it's unlikely that it influenced the idiom; as I said, people tend to quote the KJV, or what they think is the KJV.) I've found a few translations into other languages that refer to first stones. And it's made me realise that I have no idea whether non-anglophone countries have something like a KJV -- a translation made several centuries ago, regarded as a prose classic despite having had its translation flaws recognised, and despite being occasionally difficult for a modern reader because of the archaic language. Well, apart from Luther in German, of course. |
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kizolk
Indecisive 
Posts: 5,187
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Post by kizolk on Jul 27, 2023 7:51:15 GMT
I've found a few translations into other languages that refer to first stones. And it's made me realise that I have no idea whether non-anglophone countries have something like a KJV -- a translation made several centuries ago, regarded as a prose classic despite having had its translation flaws recognised, and despite being occasionally difficult for a modern reader because of the archaic language. Off the top of my head I couldn't cite an iconic French translation of the Bible, let alone an archaicizing and flawed one, and a quick search didn't help in pinpointing one in particular so I'd say no, no French equivalent of the KJV. I also wouldn't say you ever hear archaicisms when people quote the Bible. John 8.7 is usually quoted as: "que celui qui n'a jamais péché lui jette la première pierre". |
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,187
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Post by kizolk on Jul 27, 2023 7:54:56 GMT
Off the top of my head I couldn't cite an iconic French translation of the Bible, let alone an archaicizing and flawed one, and a quick search didn't help in pinpointing one in particular so I'd say no That doesn't mean it doesn't exist; you'd probably get another answer from a Catholic for instance, or a knowledgeable one at least. But it's probably safe to say no French translation is as iconic as the KJV. I may be getting it completely wrong, but it seems to me even the general anglophone public is vaguely aware of the KJV. |
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