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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Feb 25, 2024 23:16:41 GMT
From FB, laboriously:
Callaina:
I first came across it in the libretto to Berg’s Wozzeck, which is a modern opera, though based on an earlier play.
Not that I was listening to Wozzeck by choice…it was forced upon me (a music student at the time).
Me:
I find Berg painful.
But I thought that was because I was an uncircumcised Philistine.
Many years ago, I think we talked about the tripartite division of music, which you sort of agreed with.
Callaina:
Mostly I can’t stand any of the 12-tone composers, though I find some pieces bearable here and there. Like Verklärte Nacht.
Me:
Music one likes, music one accepts, and then there's 'please make it stop',
Callaina:
I can relate to that.
Me:
Verklärte Nacht doesn't really count, does it? It's not Schoenberg in please make it stop mode.
We should get kizolk involved.
Callaina:
I think my least favorite of the 12-tone guys is Webern. Never heard a single piece of his that evoked the slightest enjoyment. Except insofar as they tend to be short.
I don’t mind Berg’s piano sonata.
Heck, even bits of Wozzeck kind of grew on me.
Me:
Like warts?
Callaina:
Haha, maybe a bit. Like they were so weird-sounding that they caught my ear?
I guess because the opera tells this horrible story, and the music also sounded so bizarre and psychologically twisted that it was effective??
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Feb 25, 2024 23:19:24 GMT
For reference, what Callaina had encountered, which sparked the exchange, is the German use of the third person singular for the second person singular.
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Post by Etaoin Shrdlu on Feb 25, 2024 23:28:22 GMT
And sorry about the colours. I don't like them very much either, but it was cheap and easy.
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kizolk
Indecisive 
Posts: 5,711
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Post by kizolk on Feb 26, 2024 4:39:59 GMT
the German use of the third person singular for the second person singular. My German may be more rusty than I thought; what do you mean? I don't mind 12-tone for limited periods of time or as movie music but it gets old pretty quickly. |
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 4:47:54 GMT
the German use of the third person singular for the second person singular. My German may be more rusty than I thought; what do you mean? It's a rather archaic phenomenon, I think. This article talks about it a bit: thelanguagecloset.com/2022/06/04/sie-sie-sie/
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 4:50:02 GMT
I don't mind 12-tone for limited periods of time or as movie music but it gets old pretty quickly. Just pulled up a video of Wozzeck for old times' sake: You know it's modern music when you can't tell for sure whether the first minute of the video is part of the actual score or the orchestra just warming up.  |
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 4:51:53 GMT
Boy, the conductor looks nervous at 1:03-ish. On the one hand, I don't blame him...I would be having fits if I had to conduct something as weird and complicated as Wozzeck. On the other, who's to know if something goes wrong?  |
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 4:56:03 GMT
2:27: "eeeeeEEEEEeeewigkeit!"  I wish we had the "rolling on the floor pounding it furiously" smiley on this forum, as this would be a perfect moment for it. |
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 4:59:23 GMT
"Ewig, das ist ewig..."
Why yes, Berg, listening to your opera does indeed feel like eternity. How good of you to admit it.
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,711
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Post by kizolk on Feb 26, 2024 5:12:14 GMT
I see! I thought it would have something to do with sie/Sie, but I wasn't sure in what way. I actually thought about that not long ago; there was a discussion on LD about pronouns, royalty and T-V distinctions, and Pacifica brought up Italian Lei, which brought to mind Sie. You know it's modern music when you can't tell for sure whether the first minute of the video is part of the actual score or the orchestra just warming up. Tough but fair. As a general rule, I'm not very much into music pieces that sound like an experiment of sorts. Although I guess that's how some people would describe some of the music I like. |
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 5:15:25 GMT
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Post by callaina on Feb 26, 2024 5:17:09 GMT
"Ewig, das ist ewig..." Why yes, Berg, listening to your opera does indeed feel like eternity. How good of you to admit it. To be fair, I actually sort of enjoyed listening to the first two scenes just now, if only because they brought back memories of third year music school. Don't think I could sit through the whole thing though. |
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,711
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Post by kizolk on Feb 26, 2024 5:24:27 GMT
My main issue with the 12-tone technique is that it tends to make things sound very homogeneous, somewhat paradoxically. The dynamics can increase or decrease tension for instance, but overall, I always feel like I'm listening to the same piece over and over.
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,711
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Post by kizolk on Feb 26, 2024 5:26:54 GMT
But I'm willing to concede that my unfamiliarity with this kind of music plays a role in that. Some art/classical music-inclined people seem to think all popular music sounds the same after all.
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kizolk
Indecisive
Posts: 5,711
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Post by kizolk on Feb 26, 2024 17:55:29 GMT
To be fair to Berg, the 12-tone + opera combination is one that had almost exactly zero chance of appealing to me. I'd genuinely like to enjoy opera as much as I enjoy the idea of opera, but operatic singing is my kryptonite. I can enjoy its technicity but no emotion gets through to me (by which I don't mean it's devoid of emotion; I'm just not sensitive to this way of expressing it).
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